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Date: Wed, 05 JUN 1996 15:27:44 +0100 (BST) From: Association d'Evere Subject: Mrs Eaves To: editor@emigre.com
To A.K.A. Rudy VanderLans
Design Week, published in this country, has recently printed
an article about your font ”Mrs Eaves• and my wife Annie who is,
inter alia, a typographer.
Strangely, one of her favourite range of fonts is Baskerville, and
in recent history she acquired, at no small expense, an original
book by the man himself.
I have been looking through your brochure about ”Mrs Eaves• and would
like to raise a non-typographer's question. Why are the open quotes
in the font upside down? Is this some arcane typographic device? The
Mrs Eaves here does not seem to know!
I have been thumbing through some old type books this morning and
have not got any further forward in deciding whether you are right
in putting in droopy opening quotes. For example: beside me, in an old
type book, I have the font "Cooper Black". In this the open quotes are
the "right way up", but in "Cooper Black Italic" the the quotes are shown
”upside-down•. In the condensed version they are the ”right way• up again.
All Baskerville is the "right way" up but I have found other examples
where "droopy" quotes are shown. Looking now at "Helvetica Medium
Extended" I see you are given both options!
Can anyone give me the definitive rule about the use of the type of
open quotes, or is it just designer whim? I must say that the droopy
open quotes on ”Mrs Eaves• look very odd to me. Have you seen droopy
quotes used in any newspaper?
As you might imagine, we will probably be getting a copy of the ”Mrs Eaves•
fonts. Just to please me, you wouldn't like to add an open quotes
the right way up would you? Maybe Baskerville would turn in his grave,
but I can't help that!
Aesthetically concerned, I remain,
Yours sincerely,
Peter Eaves (Mr)
PS For heaven's sake: I have just opened ”Anatomy of a Typeface• by
Alexander Lawson. The book fell open at a page which reprints a quote from
"The Tempest" originally printed at the Officina Bodoni in 1924. Here,
open quotes are used both sides of a quotation. Architecture is for
architects, typography is for typographers etc etc.
--
Association d‘Evere
Date: Fri, 7 JUN 96 10:17:26 PST
Dear Peter Eaves,
Thank you for your letter about quotation marks. This is a topic that comes up
again and again because my personal preference is for quotation marks that are
"upside" down from what is ”the norm.•
I think its interesting that you refer to my open quotes in Mrs Eaves as
”droopy• because that's exactly my perception of the traditional quotes. (I
think quotes look "droopy" when the heavy part is on the bottom, that‘s why I
put the heavy part on top. To me traditional quotes simply look upside down.)
Just goes to show how subjective perception is.
You ask if there is a definitive rule about quotation marks. Well, there is an
aspect of typography that is more akin to art than science, and consequently has
no definitive rules. Typographic standards are for the most part conventions
that have come about through consistent usage, but these conventions change over
time through small changes in usage, much like language. You know what they say
about rules... they're meant to be broken!
However, if I haven‘t convinced you and you'd still prefer the more traditional
quotes for Mrs Eaves, you'll be interested to know that Emigre will be releasing
a special extended ligature font set for Mrs Eaves, and we plan, as the result
of your suggestion, to provide alternate quotes in these fonts.
Best wishes,
Date: Tue, 11 JUN 1996 15:22:35 +0100 (BST)
All very true.
> However, if I haven't convinced you and you'd still prefer the more traditional
> quotes for Mrs Eaves, you'll be interested to know that Emigre will be releasing
> a special extended ligature font set for Mrs Eaves, and we plan, as the result
> of your suggestion, to provide alternate quotes in these fonts.
How very kind of you to humour me and other stick-in-the-muds. Much appreciated!
Best wishes,
Peter Eaves
PS The Mrs Eaves here says you are famous. I am flattered you took the time
to reply to my e-mail.
--
Association d'Evere
Date: Tue, 11 JUN 96 12:06:45 PST
Dear Peter Eaves,
Your questioning of our quotation marks was not the first, but I think its been
the most thoughtful and researched one. Therefore, I thought it would be helpful
to write something to this effect in Emigre's next promotional mailer.
Following is the piece that we'd like to run. I'd like to get your approval to
include your quote.
Thanks again,
Zuzana Licko
Upside Down Quotation Marks?
This is a question that comes up regularly because many Emigre Fonts have
flipped rather than rotated open quotation marks. So, its not surprising that
this question was posed again upon the release of Mrs Eaves.
”I have been looking through your brochure about 'Mrs Eaves' and would like to
raise a non-typographer's question. Why are the open quotes in the font upside
down? Is this some arcane typographic device?
I have been thumbing through some old type books this morning and have not
got any further forward in deciding whether you are right in putting in droopy
opening quotes.
Can anyone give me the definitive rule about the use of the type of open
quotes, or is it just designer whim? I must say that the droopy open quotes on
Mrs Eaves‘ look very odd to me.
Just to please me, you wouldn't like to add an open quotes the right way up
would you? Maybe Baskerville would turn in his grave, but I can't help that!
Aesthetically concerned, I remain,
Yours sincerely,
Peter Eaves (Mr)•
The reason for putting flipped quotation marks in our fonts is a matter of
personal preference of the type designer. ”To me, it is the rotated quotation
marks that look upside down, and droopy,• Zuzana Licko.
For a more historic perspective, we contacted John Downer, who offered the
following explanation.
”I would say that in general, traditional typographers favor 'upside down'
double and single open quotes, and they have since around the time such marks
became standard in English printing.
The comma style‘ punctuation used for enclosing quoted matter may have been
an invention of English typefounders or an idea borrowed from Italian or
Spanish, since most of the other Romance languages employ different forms of
quotation marks. From the perspective of a typefounder, the expediency of using
the punch that has already been cut for the comma to strike mats for all
quotation marks makes sense. Why bother to cut special, reverse punches for your
open quotation marks?
To the best of my knowledge, marks of the comma‘ design were not used in
printed Latin texts during the Incunabula or thereafter. They don't seem to have
come into common usage in English until our language became somewhat stable in
its spelling. Thus, the upside down style (as it has come to be accepted in
English) must have only a relatively short history: 200 to 300 years, but of
course that is plenty of time for a typographic convention to take hold.
This is not to say that I believe it is wrong to design top heavy opening
marks. I do it in my sign painting out of habit. Roxy is a good example of a
typeface I have designed that uses flopped, rather than rotated, open quotes. If
the English-reading world could have its say, I imagine this choice would be
preferred,• John Downer.
For those of you who still prefer the rotated quotes for Mrs Eaves, you'll be
interested to know that these are included in the Mrs Eaves Ligature fonts.
(Peter replies)
Interesting this. However, isn't the answer to the appearance of droopy quotes
rather more prosaic?
With longhand it is easier to make droopy or, as JD describes them, ”flopped•
quotes. Furthermore, typewriter fonts, which have been around quite a while now,
tend to have ”unsexed• quotes that are essentially flopped/droopy in form. I suspect
that our eyes have latched on to the typewriter quotes shape and the flopped style has
started to appear here and there as a result.
I always remember dictation at school. When speech/quote marks were required, the teacher
would say, ”Open inverted commas•, and then (after the quote), ”Close commas•. |